Quad racing motors in single motor "prop in slot" Park Jets

Discussion in 'Electronics' started by e3_Scott, May 24, 2018.

  1. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Thanks very much, FBK, I have been chatting with another fellow who I will be working on a project with in coming weeks/months, I might just pick up an inexpensive flight controller that hopefully will allow me to use BL Heli to change settings in just about any ESC so that I don't have a whole bunch of different programmers. I just soldered up the EMAX 45A ESC mentioned in post #35 above and it has the brake on default as well. I hope to get some bench testing done over the next few days to see what the performance is like with the EMAX 45A and perhaps get it tested in a plane, brake on or off. Thanks again.

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  2. Flybyknight22

    Flybyknight22 Top Gun

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    Scott,
    As always it sounds like you have it covered.

    Don’t forget about setting the “Motor Stop” feature in airmode to OFF! :)

    There are three ways to flash that ESC I am aware of:
    1. USB programmer $5.99 no flight controller required.
    2. Software (Bassflight, betaflight etc
    “pass-through”).
    3. TX (but only after running the software and enabling that feature). I know, sounds redundant.

    I have flashed these only with the software but they can be programmed with the TX if the ability to do that is enabled in the software first

    Which means software first and then TX program capable (goofy I know).

    DCC7B21A-0C4A-4EE6-96E1-B991D6E3387E.jpeg

    Here is at least one pretty good write up that branches to TX programming of the LittleBee ESC.

    https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2015/12/06/blheli-calibration/
     
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  3. Flybyknight22

    Flybyknight22 Top Gun

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    As I’m sure you know the EMAX 45A is TX programmable.

    The issue with these purpose built ESCs for quads like the LittleBee is that the ESC never sees a direct signal from the transmitter in a multirotor like other foamy plane ESCs do. It only sees signal from the flight control board.
     
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  4. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Thanks again, FBK. I will have to do some more searching for programming the EMAX 45A ESC https://www.banggood.com/EMAX-Formu...-Racing-Drone-p-1237243.html?rmmds=mywishlist through the transmitter. It did not come with a manual, but I will get something figured out. I am about to start bench testing both the Little Bee and the EMAX with a couple different motors and props, should have some results published in the next day or two.:)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  5. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    I managed to get some bench testing done today, in this post I will just discuss the Little Bee 20A ESC I have mentioned in previous posts https://www.banggood.com/FVT-Little...C-Multirotors-p-1007740.html?rmmds=mywishlist Here it is paired with the 5V BEC https://www.banggood.com/DC-DC-Conv...e-FPV-p-981978.html?rmmds=mywishlist&ID=49553. As you can see, the combo weighs 12 gr/0.4 oz.
    2018-10-06 08.52.46.jpg
    In order to keep it light, I used a JST connector for the battery and 2mm bullet connectors to connect the motor and ESC.
    2018-10-06 08.53.17.jpg
    For the project I am working on with another fellow, I tested the Racerstar BR2207S 2500 kv motor as that is the one he is testing already with good results on the mini park jet I will be helping him with. Here are the results testing on 3S with the ESC above, links to everything are in the motor test spreadsheet I updated today. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KLR_wdkJ1OdGcf5f9jxxxU8qqmz_kXjMQH8NOLjW3NQ/edit?usp=sharing

    First I tested with the 6x3 electric sport prop from RC Timer (also known as TGS from Hobby King or KMP from Banggood)

    50% throttle - 5.2A/64.6W producing 285 gr/10.1 oz of thrust;

    100% throttle - 21.4A/253.2W producing 800 gr/28.2 oz of thrust.

    Second test was with the 6x3 APC gas prop, not quite as good.

    50% throttle - 4.8A/59.4W producing 248 gr/8.7 oz of thrust;

    100% throttle - 19.1A/228.7W producing 710 gr/25 oz of thrust.

    What was interesting is that for experiment's sake, I advanced the throttle to 60% with the 6x3 electric sport prop and the thrust jumped to over 400 gr. I normally just from muscle memory have my throttle set around this point. As I am learning, while these ESC/BEC setups might be light, they are certainly not "plug and play", but for the project I will be working on, this should work out and with about a 1000 Mah 3S battery in a light plane should give me gobs of thrust and power and reasonable flight time.

    Certainly more research and learning about programming will be required to optimize the performance. I will be soldering up some light connectors on a Turnigy Plush 30A ESC over the next few days to see what comparison there is in performance with default settings between the lightweight quad ESC and a standard ESC designed for use in planes.

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
  6. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    I finished up some more testing with the EMAX 45A ESC combo with the 5V BEC. Additionally, I tested the 6x3 APC gas prop on 3S and 4S using the HobbyWing Platinum PRO 40A ESC that I normally run with the GepRC GR2306 2750 Kv motor. Test results are on the motor test spreadsheet along with links to all the components except for the 5V BEC which is here https://www.banggood.com/DC-DC-Conv...e-FPV-p-981978.html?rmmds=mywishlist&ID=49553

    Here is the link to the spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KLR_wdkJ1OdGcf5f9jxxxU8qqmz_kXjMQH8NOLjW3NQ/edit?usp=sharing

    Here are some pictures of the ESC setup. Very light at 20 gr/0.7 oz, most 40A ESCs I use are around 44 gr/1.6 gr.
    2018-10-06 06.30.28.jpg
    I used an XT60 connector and 3.5 mm bullet connectors on this one for use with most of my power setups.
    2018-10-06 06.32.03.jpg

    Unfortunately, both this ESC and the 6x3 APC gas prop were disappointing. Doing a basic test using the EMAX 45A ESC and the 6x4 APC gas prop which is what I normally run on the GepRC motor on 3S, it produced 10% less thrust (I won't post all the numbers, if you are interested, please check out the spreadsheet) than the 6x4 APC gas prop. Although it drew less amps, with the reduction in power it is about the same efficiency, so I don't think it is worthwhile field testing until I can figure out a way to adjust the ESC settings to optimize it's performance. The ESC seemed to stay cool with a 10 sec burst at full throttle, so I suppose in addition to it being so light that might be good news, but more adjusting may be required.

    The 6x3 APC gas prop was also a bit of a disappointment on this motor. Tested with the HobbyWing Platinum PRO 40A ESC on 3S and 4S, it produced considerably less thrust. Again, although amp draw was lower, comparing the thrust produced to amps drawn, the 6x3 APC prop was no more efficient.

    On 3S, it produced about 11.5% less thrust than the 6x4 APC gas and almost 22% less thrust than the 6x3 electric sport prop. :S

    On 4S, the 6x3 APC gas prop produced a whopping 25% less thrust than the 6x3 electric sport prop!

    So I'm not sure what I will do with the props, over time I will test the 6x3 APC gas props on some other motors to see if there might be a Kv/RPM "sweet spot" for this prop. As for the ESC, I am still in discussion with a fellow to see about how I can adjust the settings to perhaps find an optimal setup for the quad motors I have been running in my park jets:)

    Testing continues:)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
  7. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    I did a bit of a spur of the moment field test today using my RC Powers F-22 V5 on 4S:)


    I have yet to do a bench test with this combo, so I'm not sure of the thrust numbers, I did do a quick check with the wattmeter at the field however.

    On 3S - 39.8A/462W

    On 4S - 58.7A/839.5W

    Today's setup

    Motor - SunnySky Edge R2305 2800 kv - https://www.banggood.com/SunnySky-E....html?rmmds=search&ID=511893&cur_warehouse=CN

    Prop - King Kong 6040 - https://www.banggood.com/10-Pairs-K...50-RC-Multirotors-p-988179.html?rmmds=myorder

    ESC - HobbyWing Platinum PRO 40A ESC with custom settings of 26.25 degrees timing and 8 KHz PWM frequency - https://www.banggood.com/HobbyWing-...l-p-70384.html?rmmds=myorder&cur_warehouse=CN

    Batteries

    3S - Gens Ace 2200 3S 45C - http://www.snhobbies.com/product_info.php?products_id=9347&osCsid=52888ddbe25c97cfe50a7e8bb1c7dd7d

    4S - Tattu R-Line 1550 4S 75C - http://www.snhobbies.com/product_in...=9278&osCsid=52888ddbe25c97cfe50a7e8bb1c7dd7d

    Not the fastest setup I have tried, but certainly the fastest I have run in the F-22. As mentioned in the video, the motor was running pretty warm, fortunately it was a cool day, only 5 C/41 F. I probably would not run it for too many flights back to back on 4S in warmer conditions.

    When I get a chance, I will bench test and provide the numbers here.

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  8. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    An update on some new goodies I decided to pick up to test over the winter.:)

    I have ordered a YEP 40A ESC from Hobby King https://hobbyking.com/en_us/yep-40a-2-6s-sbec-brushless-speed-controller.html as it seems to have a very wide range of programmable features and is in the same price range as the popular Turnigy Plush 40A ESC. I have also picked up the YEP ESC programming card to hopefully be able to access the best settings to get optimum power from my motors. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/yep-esc-programming-card.html

    The 2306 2750 is overall my favorite size of quad racing motors I have been using in my park jets, I have been putting some serious mileage on a few of the GepRC 2306 2750 motors I picked up, one of them has almost 500 flights on it now:).

    In my testing, I tested the HawkSky AT2306 II 2750 motor and it was a good performer although tended to run hotter than most other motors even with a 6x3 prop. https://www.banggood.com/Hawksky-AT...mmds=mywishlist&ID=227518683&cur_warehouse=CN

    A HawkSky AT2306 III 2750 kv motor has now been released and I picked mine up for a good price, so hopefully it will run as well or better than it's predecessor https://www.banggood.com/Hawksky-AT...html?rmmds=myorder&ID=528524&cur_warehouse=CN

    I also recently saw a review on the RCINPOWER GTS2306 V2 2750 kv motor and since it is currently on sale at Banggood, decided to pick one up https://www.banggood.com/RCINPOWER-...11488201502B&ID=515953528524&cur_warehouse=CN

    Reading a report from miniquadtestbench.com https://www.miniquadtestbench.com/rcinpower-mark-i-2750kv.html about the RCINPOWER V1 2306 2750, it was rated as being even slightly better than the GepRC 2306 2750, so hopefully the V2 will continue along the same line of performance or even better than the V1 :)

    Hopefully if the RCINPOWER motor does perform a bit better than the GepRC motor, when I get back to my 100 mph project, perhaps it will be what helps me break that barrier:)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
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  9. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    The HawkSky AT2306-III 2750 kv motor https://www.banggood.com/Hawksky-AT...html?rmmds=myorder&ID=528524&cur_warehouse=CN I ordered arrived in the mail today, so here are my first impressions.:)
    20181115_143103.jpg
    The motor weighs 36 gr/1.3 oz right out of the box as you can see above. It is quite a bit different than it's predecessor the AT2306-II 2750 motor as you can see below. The older motor is on the right.
    20181115_143748.jpg
    The motor wires included are 195mm long, so I trimmed about 50 mm off those. I like the wires to be about 145mm long, this allows me to get my ESC fairly far forward if I need to without having to use extension wires between the motor and ESC. Here are pictures of the motor top and bottom. It has a 16x16 mm bolt pattern on the bottom which is fine, the standard "X" mount used in most park jets fits just fine and thus far in my experience has held quite well on other motors with the same bolt pattern.
    20181115_143558.jpg
    20181115_143547.jpg
    With the hardware, connectors, prop, the motor weighs 46 gr/1.6 oz ready to go into the plane.
    20181115_155707 (1).jpg
    Surprisingly, this is 2 gr heavier than the AT2306-II. I think that it is due to the fact that the magnets are almost twice as thick around the inside of the bell on the AT2306-III at least from what my Mk1 eyeglass assisted 57 yr old eyeballs can see;). HawkSky did try to compensate for this by removing a lot of metal on the top of the bell. When spinning the motor by hand, the magnets feel super strong, they are N52 magnets which are kind of the top of the industry standard right now. The "air gap" between the magnets and the stator is very small, another key thing to look for in a top performing quad motor. The AT2306-III is actually $1.38 USD cheaper than the AT2306-II.

    I hope to get some bench and field testing done within the week on both 3S and 4S if the amp draw is not too high. One of the drawbacks of the AT2306-II motor I tested was that the amp draw was at least 10% higher than any other 2306 2750 kv motor I tested, so it ran pretty hot and pushed the ESCs and batteries a bit harder.

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  10. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    I had my test rig busy this morning testing the HawkSky AT2306 III 270 kv motor.:) I tested on 3S with the 6x4 APC gas and 6x3 EMP/TGS/KMP props and on 4S with the 6x3 prop.

    You can read the detailed results here on my updated quad motor test spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KLR_wdkJ1OdGcf5f9jxxxU8qqmz_kXjMQH8NOLjW3NQ/edit?usp=sharing Links to all the components used can be found on the spreadsheet.

    Here are the quick results, I used the HobbyWing Platinum PRO 40A ESC with custom settings of 26.25 degrees timing and 8 KHz PWM frequency. Here are the 3S results.

    With 6x4 APC gas prop

    50% throttle - 17.8A/212W producing 595 gr/21.0 oz of thrust;

    100% throttle - 41.9A/471.5W producing 1030 gr/36.3 oz of thrust.

    With 6x3 EMP/TGS/KMP prop

    50% throttle - 17.2A/205.6W producing 665 gr/23.5 oz of thrust;

    100% throttle - 38.7A/462.1W producing 1185 gr/41.8 oz of thrust.

    On 4S with 6x3 EMP/TGS/KMP prop

    50% throttle - 23.0A/365.4W producing 970 gr/34.2 oz of thrust;

    100% throttle - 61.6A/896.2W producing 1710 gr/60.3 oz of thrust.

    So how do these numbers compare to other motors? Compared to it's predecessor the AT2306 II, it is slightly more powerful with the 6x4 APC gas prop and draws considerably less amps.

    With the 6x3 EMP prop on 3S it did not produce quite as much thrust top end, slightly better mid range but again did it more efficiently at full throttle.

    I never tested the AT2306 II on 4S, compared to the GepRC GR2306 2750 kv "beast" of a motor, it is certainly not as powerful, but it is more powerful than the EMAX 2306 2750 kv motor, so it is certainly in the ball park with these other motors and is cheaper than the GepRC motor and it's predecessor the AT2306 II.

    Hope to get some field testing done this week:).

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  11. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    I managed to get out and and put a half a dozen flights through the HawkSky AT2306 III 2750 kv motor today before the fog closed in:) Tested on 3S only today.


    As mentioned in the video, I was quite impressed with it's performance, not quite as peppy as the GepRC GR2306 2750 kv motor setup, but pretty close and a bit cheaper.

    Despite better numbers on the bench with the 6x3 EMP/TGS/KMP prop, at the field the 6x4 APC gas was better overall. This motor seems to have very good top end torque to keep spinning the 6x4 prop effectively right through the throttle range and up to full throttle. With the 6x3 prop, it seemed to "flatten out" in the last 15% of the throttle range where there was no improvement in performance whereas it kept going faster all the way through with the 6x4 prop.

    I hope to get some 4S field testing done very soon :)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  12. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    Unfortunately, my 4S field testing with the HawkSky AT2306 III 2750 kv motor (I'll call it V3 from this point on) lasted about one minute before the motor shut down never to work again:(.

    I closely inspected the stator when I got home, I had to get out a magnifying glass and could see a few black spots on the windings close to the motor shaft. Otherwise, the stator and all other motor parts looked fine. It never smoked nor was the motor especially hot when I went to pick up the plane. My suspicion is that it might have been burnt by a surge as when I did hammer the throttle on three high speed runs, the acceleration was better than anything else I have seen to date. It stopped working on the fourth attempt at a high speed run, fortunately I had plenty of runway left and was able to dead stick the plane to a safe landing.

    So I thought that since the magnets look a little stronger than the V2 motor and the top of the can is open on the V3 rather than closed like on the V2, I would try combining the bell from the V3 and the stator from the V2 and see what happened. I'll call it V2.5:) I am hoping it will run well and remain cooler than the V2 did which was one of it's main drawbacks.
    20181121_142853.jpg
    Fortunately everything fit nicely and the combination spins smoothly. It is also lighter than either the V2 or V3 coming in at 42 gr/1.5 oz ready to go in the plane.
    20181121_142942.jpg
    I did some bench testing on 3S already. I don't know if I will try this motor on 4S, but the results are pretty good except with the 6x4 APC gas prop.

    I have updated the motor test spreadsheet, you can find links to all the components used in testing here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KLR_wdkJ1OdGcf5f9jxxxU8qqmz_kXjMQH8NOLjW3NQ/edit?usp=sharing I created a separate sheet for this "hybrid" motor.

    6x3 EMP/TGS/KMP prop

    50% throttle - 17.6A/216.5W producing 660 gr/23.2 oz of thrust;

    100% throttle - 40.6A/462.3W producing 1190 gr/42.0 oz of thrust.

    6x4 APC gas prop

    50% throttle - 19A/235.1W producing 550 gr/19.4 oz of thrust;

    100% throttle - 45.3A/499.6W producing 970 gr/34.2 oz of thrust.

    King Kong/LDARC 6040 prop

    50% throttle - 18A/214.7W producing 655 gr/23.1 oz of thrust;

    100% throttle - 42.3A/468.2W producing 1180 gr/41.6 oz of thrust.

    The thrust performance with the 6x4 APC gas prop is considerably less than either the V2 or V3 and it draws considerably more amps, so probably not a good choice.

    The numbers as you can see with the 6x3 EMP and KK 6040 props are quite similar, the KK 6040 drawing a bit more amps as you would expect with the extra pitch.

    The V2 produced more thrust with the 6x3 EMP prop than this V2.5, but ran very hot perhaps because of the enclosed bell, I'm not sure. Field testing will take place as soon as I can, I will probably run the KK 6040 as I tend to prefer a 6x4 prop on 3S if I can run it:)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
  13. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    Managed to get out today and field test the "hybrid" Hawksky AT2306 "V2.5" 2750 kv motor as mentioned above:)


    I was pretty pleased with the performance, no issues with the motor, ran smooth the whole time. With the KK 6040 prop it has pretty close to equal mid range performance as the GepRC GR2306 2750 kv motor/6x4 APC gas combo that is my favorite quad motor in my park jets. Top end though it is certainly not as fast, but then it doesn't really spin the 6x4 APC gas well and comparatively the KK 6040 produces about 10-15% less performance at top end when compared to the 6x4 APC gas.

    The motor did actually run a little warmer than other 2306 2750 motors, so I would have to keep an eye on it in warmer weather or perhaps prop down to the 6x3 EMP/TGS/KMP prop, but for a winter beater plane it is a great combo for some good "thrashin' and dashin'":)

    #keepingRCPowersalive

    Cheers,

    Scott
     

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