PARKJET MOTOR BENCH TESTING

Discussion in 'Electronics' started by e3_Scott, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. That's cool, it rocks pretty good. :)
     
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  2. Hey Scott,
    I haven't received the 6X4 gas prop yet but I did get their 6X3 free Flight 049 Sport prop that was in the same category, not impressed at all compared to the 6X3 TGS prop All tested with the exact same battery (Zippy 2200 65C 3S & 4S) 80A HK ESC and NTM 2836 3000KV motor.

    APC 6X3 free Flight 049
    On 3S
    50% T - 19.9 A - 215 W - 13.4 oz
    100% T - 45 A - 420 W - 29.7 oz

    4S
    50% T - 21.5 A - 430 W - 25.6 oz
    100% T - 79.9 A - 1069 W - 48.8 oz

    TGS 6X3 Prop
    3S
    50% T - 22 A - 253 W - 20 oz
    100% T 62 A - 634 W - 45 oz

    4S
    50% T - 32 A - 505 W - 38.8 oz
    100% T - 99 A - 1354 W - 68 oz

    now I am out of the same rotation prop of the APC 6X4E props but I do have their 6X4 EP, so just reversed rotation, well I was very disappointed, they tested less thrust then the TGS prop even though the APC is a 6X4 and the TGS is a 6X3. Amps and watts prett simalr but thrust was quite a bit less.
    3S
    50% 16.4 oz versus 20oz
    100% 35 oz versus 45 oz
    4S
    50% 26 oz versus 38.8 oz
    100% 55 oz versus 68 oz.

    Now I did also just for the heck of it tried the reversed HK look a like APC prop in a 6X4R , it's numbers are very close to the actual APC prop, thrust included.

    it will be interesting to see what that 6X4 gas prop does.
     
  3. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Sorry to hear that Jeff, do you have a picture of the 049 free flight prop compared to the 6x4 APC electric just to see the difference in blade shape, etc?

    As you might have seen in my testing with the old NTM 2700, there was not a huge jump in top end thrust, good mid range improvement, but the motor I tested was a bit old, I sent all my newer NTM 2700s to my NAMC partner Dave months ago since I don't really use them anymore.

    The gas props I got from AMain are certainly a lot stiffer than the knockoff APC props I was using from HK and have given me great performance on the bench and in the air on at least two smaller motors (both 2700 or more Kv).

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  4. I will have to take a picture of it, it is definitely a narrower blade and is different then the 6X4 gas prop even though it is listed in the same category at APC. What is baffling me is that the TGS prop is doing better then the electric APC 6X4 prop , I know the APC prop I used was a reverse rotation compared to the TGS but it still was the APC electric prop. I might have to pull a NTM 2700kv motor out of a plane and see how they compare then.
     
  5. Bottom to Top, APC Free Flight 049 gas 6X3, HK APC 6X4R (reversed rotation), TGS 6X3



    2017_1112_083111_001.JPG 2017_1112_083118_002.JPG
     
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  6. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Thanks Jeff, very interesting differences in prop blade shape, the 6x3 gas has very thin tips compared to the other two, is it about the same stiffness? There must be some loss of power from the blade shape happening somewhere. I remember running the .049 glow motors in control line planes as a kid, I don't have any idea what their RPM would have been, so either the electric motors are not generating enough RPM or are generating too much to take advantage of the prop design.

    Looking at the amps you are drawing and watts produced compared to the relatively low thrust numbers, the 6x3 gas prop you tested does not seem to be very efficient at the RPM range you are running on your 3000 Kv motor.

    I have never run motors with as high a Kv as what you are running on 3S or 4S, so I'm a little out of my depth there, perhaps prop blade design becomes far more critical as the RPM climbs higher and higher. Certainly props like the MA 6x4x3 are effective within a certain RPM range, as we both discovered, go beyond that and any minor gain in thrust is negated by the insane amp draw.

    rcplanepirate did this really good video comparing APC to TGS props, some very interesting discoveries and observations. He shows that when measured, the 6x4 APC props are slightly less than 6" and the TGS props are slightly more than 6". Additionally, the pitch is very aggressive at the hub on APC electric props and more gradual the whole length of the prop on the TGS which may also explain the better thrust, at least in props of 6" and below.

    Be interesting to see if the 6x4 APC gas prop does make any difference for you, they are certainly not as aggressive in pitch at the hub and more gradual towards the tip than the electric APC props.

    I have come to realize speaking with RCPP that my thought that the EMP props I use and the TGS props HK sell were the same is probably not be true. His experience is the TGS props like you use are thinner than the EMP props I get from RC Timer and therefore easier for the motor to spin. I will have to get some TGS props from HK to try and see if there is a difference. I know the 6x4 EMP props I got from RC Timer were some of the most inefficient props I have ever tested, so another thing to have a look at :)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  7. Hi Scott,
    It is a very stiff prop compared to the normal APC and even the TGS one. Hurry up mail man so I can test that gas prop 6X4 :D :D . Like I said I want to also pull a 2700kv NTM out of one of the planes and run the same test and see what happens. So far even on 3S the 6X3 TGS is the winner. :)
     
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  8. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Jeff -

    I just finished watching RCPP's video all the way through (not sure if you had watched it all yet), starting at about 27 minutes, he bench tests head to head the 6x4 APC electric, gas and the 6x4 TGS on an 1800 Kv motor, but on 5S, so he would probably be in the same ball park RPM wise as what you would be with the 3000 Kv motor on 3S. Unbelievable difference, huge jump in thrust with the TGS prop, I think like 300 gr of thrust, but less amp draw than the 6x4 APC electric. The 6x4 APC gas didn't have a whole lot more thrust than the 6x4 APC electric, but a drop in amps, so more efficient.

    He makes a good point in the video that when electric props were first designed, the electric motors were nowhere near as efficient and powerful as they are now, so for those of us running high Kv motors, either gas props or TGS props are maybe the way to go for maximum power and efficiency. Very interesting to see the difference in performance on his video :)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  9. I believe somewhere I do have a couple 6X4 TGS props but for the survival of the motors the way I run them hard on 4S the 6X3 gave me great thrust and I think in 2 years only one has gone up in smoke, with a 6X4 prop I burnt up a few in no time at all.
     
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  10. Well my 6X4 APC gas prop showed up , tested the same like the other guys in post #802, NTM 2836 3000KV, 80A HK ESC and 2200mah 65C 3S and 4S Zippy batteries. For me the overall performance on the high kv motors is ok and just a tad better then the 6X4 APC electric prop, just slightly lower in amps and watts but thrust was almost the same.

    3S
    50% Throttle > 25A , 291 W , 21 oz T
    100% Throttle > 61A , 634W , 40 oz T

    4S
    50% Throttle > 33A , 492 W , 31 oz T
    100% Throttle > 94A , 1212W , 55 oz T
     
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  11. I also just for the heck of it ordered a 10X5 APC Sport (gas) prop to compare against their 10X5E electric prop, I run these on my Spitfire, P38, P40 and the FT Red Baron planes.

    I run a little Emax XA2212 1400kv motor which is labeled for 7 - 8" props, swings the 10" no problem. So we will test it using a 2200mah 65C 3S battery and a 40A esc

    APC 10X5E electric prop
    3S
    50% Throttle > 11A , 134W , 13.5 oz T
    100% Throttle > 28A , 310W , 31 oz T

    APC 10X5 Sport Prop
    3S
    50% Throttle 12A , 129W , 18 oz T
    100% Throttle , 30A , 322W 40 oz T

    For 1 or 2 amps we have a huge gain in thrust using the Sport prop.

    For the heck of it a quick test on 4S, didn't want turn burn up the motor

    APC 10X5E electric prop
    4S
    100% Throttle > 42A , 606W , 50 oz T

    APC 10X5 Sport Prop
    4S
    100% Throttle > 46A , 685W , 60 oz T

    Few more amps again but 10 oz of thrust increase using the sport prop. :)
     
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  12. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Jeff -

    Interesting, are you using actual APC brand electric props? As you saw on my testing with the NTM 2700 I didn't see much difference between gas and electric props on 3S, but I was comparing "knock off" APC electric props from Hobby King to the brand name APC gas props. Perhaps as you get up even higher in potential RPM, the difference in blade shape doesn't improve performance as much, with a 3000 Kv motor you are potentially turning about 10% RPM on 3S than any motor I have tested thus far.

    For the motors I use in my planes, I'll use the gas props as thus far I have seen great improvement at the field with the A2212/5T 2700 Kv motor (https://www.gearbest.com/multi-rotor-parts/pp_180560.html) and the peppy little BeeRotor Z2207 2780 Kv quad racing motor (http://rctimer.com/product-1734.html)

    Perhaps at the RPM you are turning on 3000 Kv motors especially on 4S, the 6x3 TGS prop will continue to work better, even though you have slightly less pitch, if your TGS props end up being more than 6" long like RCPP showed in his video, you have more blade surface producing thrust right out to the tip of the blade. Just speculation on my part, I think it all boils down to how folks like their planes to perform at the field :)

    Wow, very significant improvement in thrust with the 10" prop :) Even though the amp draw is a little higher, 10 oz of thrust is significant and when I look at the thrust to amp ratios, with the electric 50 divided by 42 = 1.2:1, with the sport 60 divided by 46 = 1.3:1, so a better "bang for the buck" for the amps pulled.

    I'll be very interested to hear about flight performance with any of the planes you mentioned with the sport prop compared to the electric :) Thanks for sharing all the numbers.

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  13. Hi Scott,
    My initial 6X4 props were both a APC and HK ones but reversed rotation, I did get a 6X4E APC with the same rotation just to compare apples to apple, could be me or the battery who knows but the electric 6X4E (not reversed) was slightly better then it's backwards brothers :D :D . My 6X3 TGS on 3S or 4S still comes out better then all of the above. :) You are going to have to try the 6X3 TGS prop. :)


    For the 10X5 props I couldn't believe how much better it was going to the Sport prop. The only snag was finding the right bushings to mount it with, it doesn't come with any. The shaft size on the collet for the Emax motor is larger then the NTM and it was a easy one to find, one you never ever used :D :D , For the NTM I had to hunt a bit, actually stole the one out of the 6X4 gas prop. I didn't test this prop on the NTM which is a 2826 1200kv but that is the guy I will test it on. Now if it would warm up a bit. -24 here this morning, they forecasted 0 for Sunday but that has changed to -6 now .
     
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  14. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Jeff -

    I just put in a small order from HK and I ordered some 6x3 TGS props to compare to the ones I already have from RC Timer (http://rctimer.com/product-218.html). RC Timer doesn't sell them as EMP (Electric Model Power) brand props, so maybe these are also knockoffs of a knockoff, who knows?! I am pretty sure early on when I first started ordering them that one of the packages actually said Electric Model Power on it.

    Anyway, I am also going to order some KMP props (https://www.banggood.com/1Pcs-KMP-6...088498.html?rmmds=mywishlist&cur_warehouse=CN) from Banggood which rcplanepirate (RCPP) seems to think are also knockoffs of the EMP props (hard to keep track sometimes... :() My plan is then to do a head to head test of all three in 6x3 size and see if there is any real difference between them. The RC Timer ones are sold in bunches of 5, so have always been cheaper, but maybe I haven't been getting the best prop for my money, who knows?

    I did take some measurements comparing my HK 6x4 APC electric knockoff, the brand name APC 6x4 APC gas and the 6x3 EMP style prop, picture shows the results below.
    2017-11-18 09.39.18.jpg
    3/16" of an inch at certain RPM ranges could be making a significant difference I'm guessing.

    I keep a little bag of assorted prop rings from different size props I have used over the years, sometimes you never know what you can use to get a prop to fit snugly on a motor. When I tested the 7x3 EMP prop awhile back, in addition to the ring that came with that prop, I had to put three of the 6x4 APC rings in there to keep the prop relatively snug since the hub was so thick. Now I don't throw any away, just keep some extras handy :)

    Fingers crossed you get some reasonable flying weather soon :)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  15. My prop selection is into it's second bin :D :D , you probably have 10 or more. ;) I have a quite a large bag of prop rings and at one point I was almost going to throw some out, especially the ones you don't ever use but then out of the blue something comes along and you are glad you didn't throw them out. Can't wait to see how your test results are with the TGS prop,
     
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  16. bogusbandit56

    bogusbandit56 Top Gun

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    I amazed the emax swings a 10x5 on 3s let alone 4s:eek:.
    I hope you have a guard in place when you run them up.:)
     
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  17. Just a short burst on 4S and it was just warm to the touch, I expected sizzling hot instantly. :) . On 3S I have been flying that motor for over a year now and it's always had a 10X5 prop on it.
     
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  18. Nakul

    Nakul Ace Pilot

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    Awesome testing guys, sport props are the way to go! Reason why we all should look outside the norm. No doubt the 2200kv motor and 6x4E prop is a proven setup for parkjets but trust me there is a whole world out there and in this hobby new = exciting. :)
    I ordered all my gas props from towerhobbies. 15 days shipping form US straight to my house in India for like 4$ No tracking number but all 2 times the props reached me safely.

    I'm yet to test out 6x4 gas prop, i also have another prop which has been heavily tested by Funjet speed guys lol the 6X5.5E Apc. If you are in for the speed this is the prop you want, or the Graupner Cam Speed 6x6, Cam 6x5.5.

    Next time i go to the field can get some numbers but best i can do is wattmeter test, no thrust test stand here and even if i buy one i have no space to store it. Hope this helps :D
     
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  19. e3_Scott

    e3_Scott Top Gun

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    Hi Everyone -

    I had my modified RCP Su-30 V4 at the field yesterday, doing some field testing of the 6x4 APC gas prop on a 2212/6 2200 Kv motor which I'm sure most of us have used (or one like it) in a plane at least once in our park jet careers.
    2017-11-21 06.35.25.jpg

    I flew the plane with this prop, the 6x4 APC electric (knockoff from Hobby King https://hobbyking.com/en_us/apc-style-propeller-6x4-grey-ccw-2pcs.html) and the Master Airscrew 6x4x3 prop https://www.masterairscrew.com/collections/3-blade/products/3-blade-6x4-propeller in order to compare their performance during the same flight session and conditions.

    Here is video with the 6x4 APC gas prop.


    I may have misspoke about some of the bench test numbers in the video, so here they are for comparison.

    6x4 APC electric (knock off from Hobby King)

    50% throttle - 11.5A/140.3W producing 448 gr/15.8 oz of thrust;
    100% throttle - 23.6A/278.5W producing 775 gr/27.3 oz of thrust.

    6x4 APC gas prop

    50% throttle - 11.8A/144.9W producing 500 gr/17.6 oz of thrust;
    100% throttle - 23.8A/280.1W producing 848 gr/29.9 oz of thrust.

    Master Airscrew 6x4x3 prop

    50% throttle - 13A/154.2W producing 470 gr/16.6 oz of thrust;
    100% throttle - 26.9A/307.8W producing 884 gr/31.2 oz of thrust.

    The 6x4 APC gas and MA 6x4x3 props definitely performed the best in the air compared to the 6x4 APC electric knock off prop.

    I think I still would have to give the edge in top speed to the MA 6x4x3 prop, but in acceleration and mid range efficiency, I would say the 6x4 APC gas prop is better. The 6x4 APC gas prop is the quietest of the three.

    Of course the 6x4 APC gas and the MA 6x4x3 props are quite a bit more expensive than the 6x4 APC electric knockoff from Hobby King, but like many things in life you get what you pay for. By flying all three of these props on the same motor during the same flight session, I could definitely notice the difference right away. When I hit the throttle with the 6x4 APC gas and the MA 6x4x3 props, I know most of the power is being converted to thrust, the props are just so much stiffer than the APC knockoff.

    The 6x4 APC gas is certainly more efficient, I swapped a 30A ESC in for a few flights and it ran pretty cool and as I said in the video, I was landing with a bit more juice in the battery after the same length of flight compared to the MA 6x4x3 prop.

    So I will continue to fly this motor with the 6x4 APC gas prop for now to continue to evaluate it's performance :)

    Cheers,

    Scott
     
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  20. Nakul

    Nakul Ace Pilot

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    [​IMG]

    So i could not resist and ordered this T-motor F80 for Slipso pylon racer i am going to build, ordered tattu 1000mah 75c 6s lipo aswel - slim profile long lipo which will easily fit in the 30” wingspan Pylon, weighs 175g which is just right. Now i need to figure an esc which is small in size n which can handle short 60A bursts and 40-50constant. There is T-motor F45 opto esc but its 30$ and no ubec. Paired with bullnose 5x5 prop this thing will be a rocket, 180-200mph im guessing based on the ‘minishark’ video i posted on this thread earlier. I got the setup info from the guy in that video. The plane itself is an easy build and need to fibreglass it. Everything new and should be an exciting build. Photo copied from rcgroups forum.

    Im also curious to try this motor on one of the jets on 4s with 6” prop. This motor is 2500kv 4s version made for 6-7’’ quad props. Lot of guys running this on 6s with smaller props no problem.

    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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